Spoilers for major story point in Stray Gods
Butch:
OK, as there's a good year before more Fallout TV, back to games.
Finished Act 2. Poor Freddie got stabbed (didn't see that coming), I'm off to the underworld. I'm not happy. Got a question and two beefs.
Question: What was with that Persephone song? I was singing with Persephone, she was all about to smooch me, and then "You've overstayed your welcome. Get out." What? The hell was that?
Beefs:
First, I hate, in whodunnits, when you or Miss Marple or that dude from CSI or whoever investigates and investigates and investigates and it turns out to be some motherfucker you couldn't possibly have predicted. Here, "You're all suspects! Is it Pan? Is it Athena? Is it Medusa? NO! It's these fury motherfuckers who showed up out of nowhere at the end of act 2." Where's the fun in that? What were we doing until now? Boo.
Second, I'm gonna go all musical theater nerd here. Yes, yes, yes, I get it. The music comes from Grace's powers. Yes. I also get that using her power on the furies would've been narratively weird. I get it. I do. That all makes sense in a role playing game. But this is a role playing game MUSICAL. Says so right in the title! In a musical, when you have a big, act closing, climactic scene, you need a damn musical number. Everything about that bit, from the mirror room to the chase to her getting stabbed, to Grace's sorrow, to EVERYTHING needed a damn musical number. Yes, gameplay wise, that would've been tricky. Yes. I get it. But holy hell, of all the times in a musical, this musical, for there to be, you know, MUSIC, that was it. Singing furies, OK, weird. But Grace, Freddie, ghost Calliope, Hecate, Persephone, they could've given us something. Needed a big set piece song there, badly. Really badly.
Feminina:
Uh...Persephone has weird and complicated feelings and has a hard time dealing with them? I agree, that "go away now" when you were being all close and friendly was out of nowhere and felt harsh. I assume it's about how she has trouble trusting because she's been hurt before, etc. And she's been presented as a brusque, fierce sort of person, so honestly, maybe she just needed to do something to live up to her reputation, because she's been pretty nice to Grace on that particular timeline.
Beefs, yeah, I'll give you your musical theater nerdery, I've got nothing. But as for the Furies, I think discovering their involvement was meant to be more like discovering the murder weapon, which may provide a clue to the killer, than it was meant to be a "hey, the killer is no one you suspected or even ever heard of before!" I found them super effective and creepy in their menacing silence, so I didn't really miss a musical number.
Again, I get your argument from a musical theater standpoint. Just, I felt like it worked OK as it was, and maybe sometimes we forgive tweaks to the classic formula. Or not. You obviously don't have to forgive anything!
I forgave, however.
Loothound:
I didn't try to woo Persephone, so I didn't get the brusque rebuff that you two did. That reaction to someone getting close to her, especially given what we learn about her emotional entanglements, feels totally in character, though.
I'm also not going to contest anything you said, Butch, about the proper structure of 'whodunnits' or musical theatre. I know jack-all about musicals, and I agree with you about throwing curveball suspects into the story late in the game. I saw this the same way that Feminina did, though, that instead of seeing the furies as suspects we had discovered the murder weapon. The question of who used the weapon is the real question, and it still remains unanswered.
Apart from that, though, the furies bit was awesome. The silent implacablity of them was super effective, and I really liked the way they were designed and portrayed. And, once again, fashion wins on all of them.
Butch:
Hmm. Fair about the weapon thing. And I do forgive the lack of song, but man what a missed opportunity.
It's confusing, as a musical theater nerd, because, for a while there, they did stick to the formula. Wish song, conflict song, relationship song, another conflict song, comic relief song (which was a little late, but at least the order was right). What they've been lacking is where the big numbers go. Usually, you have a big, cast wide blowout as an opening number, something big at the end of the act (Defying Gravity, for example, is a first act closer. She's flying! It's a big, all cast hit! And....curtain. Drinks in the lobby). Then, there's something kinda big to bring 'em back from intermission, then a big finale.
Maybe the "big number" was too much technically, because they've passed on two key places to put one.
Maybe had I flirted with Persephone more that would've been the smooch.
Loothound:
Okay, so I'm not wise in the ways of musical theatre, but it seems to me like a huge number like you're talking about might involve breaking the fourth wall too much. We talked before about how the presence of music in the story is either 'in story' (the characters are aware of the musical numbers and their existence is explained within the world) or not (the musical numbers are unremarkable to the characters because it's just a convention of the art form) and this game needed to explain why people were breaking into song.
In the latter case, the musical numbers can address the audience without any inconsistency because everyone is aware of the music and dancing as a musical production that is performed FOR some viewer. If the music is explained in world, however, there wouldn't necessarily be any awareness of a viewer because a viewer isn't necessary to explain why the music is happening. I feel like that's a really clunky explanation for what I'm thinking, but generally what happens in this game needs to make internal sense to the characters beyond just 'well, it's a musical.' That might be more explaining than the story is willing to tackle.
Also, those big numbers tend to involve dancing. For all of the singing in this game, none have really been accompanied by dance routines, big or otherwise.
Butch:
True. But there could've been a lot of Grace/Freddie/Persephone/Hecate singing, there. It doesn't have to be a big dance number, so much as an "oh snap" plot point song. Take Sweeney Todd (cannibal barber). The second act closer is "Priest," the song where Lovett and Todd decide to start putting human meat in the pies. It's just the two of them, but it's a big plot point. Their "We'll serve anyone….meaning anyone…and to anyone…At allllll!" curtain is a big gasp moment, much like Freddie's death. It's just two people (Angela Landsbury and George Hearn, yes, dear readers, Hearn, not Cariou, I will fight you). (Sorry, Femmy and Looty, got too nerdy there.)
Loothound:
No worries, nerdy is good! It's nice to hear about aspects of the game that are more apparent to people who are well versed in the medium. I'm just not actively comparing this game to a vast and well-familiar catalogue of productions, so these things don't jump out at me.
I'm not familiar with the Sweeney Todd number that you're talking about, so I can't really picture what you mean. I've only seen the Depp one, but even that was a while ago and I feel like there may have been a drinking game involved. I'm sure that it makes perfect sense, though.
I think the other tricky thing when it comes to planning out these numbers is that Grace may be accompanied by different people depending on the play choices. That would certainly complicate things, but there's probably a way to get it done.
Butch:
Hmm. Good point. Was your Apollo there when Freddie got stabbed? As mine was not.
Feminina:
No one is ever with you when Freddie gets stabbed (except...uh...Freddie), but either Apollo or Persephone will show up with Hecate right afterwards, depending on who you sided with in that bit.
Butch:
Right. That's what I meant.
Would make a big number tricky.
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